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Lead vesica seal matrix for id, please

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:58 am
by Me and my boy
I found this last night on a wet worked down field. It was a good 8-9” deep which is normally where I find my larger lead bits.
Deus hot, freq 29

I gently washed the mud off with a bit of tap water and then gentle toothbrush. It was readable last night as pictured but left in the side, it has gone quite white this morning.

If anyone could I’d it I would very much appreciate it.

It’s my first vesica seal matrix so don’t want to knacker it any further than I have already.

Re: Lead vesica seal matrix for id, please

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:08 am
by Tizabi
very nice find ::g

Re: Lead vesica seal matrix for id, please

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:12 am
by Oxgirl36
My jealousy knows no bounds l;.

Re: Lead vesica seal matrix for id, please

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:15 am
by Fusion
They're tricky things to clean, leaving just the right amount of mud on them seems to bring out the detail the best.
Yours is just decipherable.

: S' D IOhIS . FIL RICAR'

Seal of Johannes ( John ) son of Richard

Slighly unusual in not having a cross to seperate the start/finish, having 4 pellets in a cross layout.

Re: Lead vesica seal matrix for id, please

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:15 am
by Easylife
A cool find. ::g

Re: Lead vesica seal matrix for id, please

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:21 am
by shaggybfc
Fusion wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:15 am
They're tricky things to clean, leaving just the right amount of mud on them seems to bring out the detail the best.
Yours is just decipherable.

: S' D IOhIS . FIL RICAR'

Seal of Johannes ( John ) son of Richard

Slighly unusual in not having a cross to seperate the start/finish, having 4 pellets in a cross layout.
Fusion, It amazes me how you decipher these items ::g - I know what it says, but still can't see it x;
Andi

Re: Lead vesica seal matrix for id, please

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:22 pm
by Me and my boy
Fusion wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:15 am
They're tricky things to clean, leaving just the right amount of mud on them seems to bring out the detail the best.
Yours is just decipherable.

: S' D IOhIS . FIL RICAR'

Seal of Johannes ( John ) son of Richard

Slighly unusual in not having a cross to seperate the start/finish, having 4 pellets in a cross layout.
That’s amazing thanks. I’m going to take a photo in the mirror and try and see it myself when home at lunch.
Thanks again

Re: Lead vesica seal matrix for id, please

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:30 pm
by Me and my boy
Fusion wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:15 am
They're tricky things to clean, leaving just the right amount of mud on them seems to bring out the detail the best.
Yours is just decipherable.

: S' D IOhIS . FIL RICAR'

Seal of Johannes ( John ) son of Richard

Slighly unusual in not having a cross to seperate the start/finish, having 4 pellets in a cross layout.
I was called a philistine On here once for joking about knocking the iron out of a piece of gold I found, but would rubbing some mud back into this be wrong?

Re: Lead vesica seal matrix for id, please

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:39 pm
by shaggybfc
Here you go, reversed.... I can just about see it, but wouldn't have a clue without the Fusion's input.
seal.jpg

Re: Lead vesica seal matrix for id, please

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:56 pm
by Me and my boy
Great, thanks shabbybfc

I can see it now but almost see a T before the R

Re: Lead vesica seal matrix for id, please

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:30 pm
by sweepstick47
That's a cracking example which I like very muchly. Well found that man ::g Regards ss47

Re: Lead vesica seal matrix for id, please

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:33 pm
by Me and my boy
Any ideas what the symbol in the centre could be? It reminds me of a tree of life!

Re: Lead vesica seal matrix for id, please

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:34 pm
by Me and my boy
sweepstick47 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:30 pm
That's a cracking example which I like very muchly. Well found that man ::g Regards ss47
Cheers SS47, I’m well chuffed with it.

Re: Lead vesica seal matrix for id, please

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:30 pm
by Me and my boy
is this written in old French. filius being son in Latin?

Using shabbybfc’s reversed image, I’ve graffitied over it to show others like myself that maybe could make head not tail of it before fusion skilfully deciphered it.


Ps how do I reverse an image( on iPhone)?

Re: Lead vesica seal matrix for id, please

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:58 pm
by Ladybird66
Me and my boy wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:33 pm
Any ideas what the symbol in the centre could be? It reminds me of a tree of life!

Christian Cross. Maybe not the pope but an Arch Bishop. See below
Not certain on that as the pope is the Patriarch of the church. The supreme father.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christi ... s_variants

Re: Lead vesica seal matrix for id, please

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:36 pm
by Me and my boy
Ladybird66 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:58 pm
Me and my boy wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:33 pm
Any ideas what the symbol in the centre could be? It reminds me of a tree of life!

Christian Cross. Maybe not the pope but an Arch Bishop. See below
Not certain on that as the pope is the Patriarch of the church. The supreme father.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christi ... s_variants
Great work. Many thanks.

Re: Lead vesica seal matrix for id, please

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:03 pm
by Me and my boy
This is probably all wrong but, John Son of Richard, possible archbishop! Found on the way to Canterbury within 20 miles. Date approx 12-15th c ?

John morton was Archbishop of Canterbury from 1486, his farther was Richard.

I’m probably going down the wrong route as I’m sure he would have had a silver or gold seal.

Re: Lead vesica seal matrix for id, please

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:23 pm
by jondurandsilver
Some interesting research there guys.
I would use a cocktail stick just to get the worst of the mud out but you don't have to as you've discovered the writing well enough.
Nice find in great nick, as a lot of these perish due to the acidity etc in the soil.
::g

Re: Lead vesica seal matrix for id, please

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:45 pm
by Ladybird66
There’s a few John’s to choose from here

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John


You could spend a long time researching the most likely ones. Happy reading :D

p.s. I like what you’ve come up with so far. Sounds plausible ::g

Re: Lead vesica seal matrix for id, please

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:58 pm
by Me and my boy
Thanks John and ladybird. I’m a little liable to get carried away with my research and believe what I want to believe. I was just getting my hopes up, I’m just trying to think it’s just a bog standard seal of a John. Probably no Archbishop, Pope etc just wishful thinking.
Still like it whatever or whoever

Re: Lead vesica seal matrix for id, please

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:14 pm
by Ladybird66
Why would an everyday trader or suchlike have the cross in the middle of his seal ?

No, I wouldn’t say you were getting carried away by your imagination. There must be some connection to the church.

Re: Lead vesica seal matrix for id, please

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:26 am
by Me and my boy
Ladybird66 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:14 pm
Why would an everyday trader or suchlike have the cross in the middle of his seal ?

No, I wouldn’t say you were getting carried away by your imagination. There must be some connection to the church.
Thanks Ladybird,

I appreciate your help and research.

I’m still reading up on them. 👍

Re: Lead vesica seal matrix for id, please

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:47 am
by Me and my boy
I think my earlier guess of John Morton is wrong. looking further into vesica seals, the design is more 12-14c so not as late as 1486.

I’ll put it through my Flo, but can’t at the moment as they emailed recently saying
“We have a finds hiatus currently until August 2019, we will still return finds and take in treasure and significant finds”

Hopefully he will be able to shed more light, but August being harvest time and more detecting land available, I’m sure he’ll be still snowed under.