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Not your usual shottie!

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:39 am
by Easylife
A new pasture permission is not giving up too much so far, though the grass is a quite long a couple of firsts still showed up. A pin fire 7mm casing and a more interesting 40mm shottie cap which is about twice the size of the usual ones so wondering if it's from a punt gun? The notched crimping is quite distinctive, any thoughts?
Image

Image

Now that's a big punt gun!
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Edit: It could possibly also be from a flare gun but maybe slightly oversize?

Re: Not your usual shottie!

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 6:48 am
by fred
The baby pinfire is a tiddler. I believe that they were mostly used for cheap Belgian revolvers up to about WW1. I may even have one somewhere. :D

I had always assumed that the very large shotgun type caps were from flare guns but I have no evidence whatsoever for that other than they can turn up in places that a punt gun would be unlikely to be used. I now think that they were mostly for Coffman 'shotgun' starter systems for machinery, either military or agricultural. ::g

Re: Not your usual shottie!

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 7:09 am
by Wigeon
A centre-fire cartridge, breech loading punt gun would be quite unusual however they did and still do exist.

It is about the right size for a 4 bore punt or shoulder gun and I have seen early 4 bore cartridges with that type of primer.

Another possibility is that it is from a flare cartridge, which would perhaps explain the 'crimping'.

I agree with Fred regarding the likely origin of the pinfire case.

Re: Not your usual shottie!

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 7:13 am
by Wigeon
fred wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 6:48 am
The baby pinfire is a tiddler. I believe that they were mostly used for cheap Belgian revolvers up to about WW1. I may even have one somewhere. :D

I had always assumed that the very large shotgun type caps were from flare guns but I have no evidence whatsoever for that other than they can turn up in places that a punt gun would be unlikely to be used. I now think that they were mostly for Coffman 'shotgun' starter systems for machinery, either military or agricultural. ::g
I had forgotten about the 'tractor stating' cartridges Fred. I even remember some tractors being started with them when I was a boy.

Re: Not your usual shottie!

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 7:21 am
by Wigeon
Just looked up the Coffman starter cartridge. Says that they were 4 Gauge (4 bore) so about the right size too ::g so got to be a distinct possibility.

Re: Not your usual shottie!

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 8:20 am
by Bors

Re: Not your usual shottie!

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 8:40 am
by GeorgeMK
1.5” signal cartridge.
Some signalling cartridges have knurled or partially knurled rims to distinguish cartridge colour in the dark.

(Photo is from BOCN forum originally posted by Ron in Australia)
7CC5FC13-3765-43BF-AE4D-CF86C8357E53.jpeg

Incidentally, 4 Bore is only around 1”

Re: Not your usual shottie!

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 2:42 pm
by Dave8472
Just for info I have has a few flare gun ends from WWII airfield sites, one with UK markings on and they were all 42mm Diameter, but with smooth sides like a normal shot gun end.

I have one later one that is dated 1967 (32mm)

Dave ):=

Re: Not your usual shottie!

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 2:52 pm
by Easylife
So the possibilities so far now are from a punt gun, flare gun or starter cartridge.
Image

Whatever fired this would need to have had a bore of 40mm+ or over 1.58 inches which according to this table the closest would be 1 gauge.
Gauge sizes..png
The 1 1/2" bore flare guns seem to have an actual bore size of 37mm which would be too small for this unless there were variants?

Out of interest:
The largest shotgun is a 4 gauge with about a 1" diameter bore.
Here's starting a tractor with a shotty.

Re: Not your usual shottie!

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 2:58 pm
by Easylife
Wigeon wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:21 am
Just looked up the Coffman starter cartridge. Says that they were 4 Gauge (4 bore) so about the right size too ::g so got to be a distinct possibility.
4 gauge is 26.72mm whereas this is 40mm. x;

Re: Not your usual shottie!

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 3:03 pm
by Easylife
Dave8472 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:42 pm
Just for info I have has a few flare gun ends from WWII airfield sites, one with UK markings on and they were all 42mm Diameter, but with smooth sides like a normal shot gun end.
Which makes me wonder what the actual bore of larger flare or signal guns were? But have only seen reference to the 1 1/2" actual 37mm bore ones. Though 42mm (1 5/8") would relate to a 1 gauge cartridge. x;

Re: Not your usual shottie!

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 3:46 pm
by GeorgeMK
It is the base of a 1.5” signal cartridge, as I posted above.

The breech end of the chamber on a British WW2 1.5” No.4 MkI* signal pistol measures 40mm, the rim recess just shy of 44mm.

Most signal pistols have short barrels that are entirely filled by the cartridge, so it could be argued that most don’t actually have a bore, merely a chamber. However most signal cartridges also had thick cardboard walls, so the internal diameter of the cartridge and therefore the diameter of the pyrotechnic device it projects, is much less than the external dimension of the case.

Re: Not your usual shottie!

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 5:59 pm
by Wigeon
Easylife wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:58 pm
Wigeon wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:21 am
Just looked up the Coffman starter cartridge. Says that they were 4 Gauge (4 bore) so about the right size too ::g so got to be a distinct possibility.
4 gauge is 26.72mm whereas this is 40mm. x;
You are absolutely right rl; this is far too big for a 4 gauge cartridge. I shall plead old age early morning and pre-decimal education. ::g Sorry for the error.

Re: Not your usual shottie!

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 10:16 pm
by Easylife
GeorgeMK wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 3:46 pm
It is the base of a 1.5” signal cartridge, as I posted above.

The breech end of the chamber on a British WW2 1.5” No.4 MkI* signal pistol measures 40mm, the rim recess just shy of 44mm.
Thanks George, just the info I was looking for. Any idea of possible date? ::g

Re: Not your usual shottie!

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 10:35 pm
by GeorgeMK
Easylife wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:16 pm
GeorgeMK wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 3:46 pm
It is the base of a 1.5” signal cartridge, as I posted above.

The breech end of the chamber on a British WW2 1.5” No.4 MkI* signal pistol measures 40mm, the rim recess just shy of 44mm.
Thanks George, just the info I was looking for. Any idea of possible date? ::g
Probably WW2 and most likely aircraft related, but 1.5” signal pistols were in use during WW1 and are still made today.

Re: Not your usual shottie!

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:04 pm
by Easylife
GeorgeMK wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:35 pm
Easylife wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:16 pm
GeorgeMK wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 3:46 pm
It is the base of a 1.5” signal cartridge, as I posted above.

The breech end of the chamber on a British WW2 1.5” No.4 MkI* signal pistol measures 40mm, the rim recess just shy of 44mm.
Thanks George, just the info I was looking for. Any idea of possible date? ::g
Probably WW2 and most likely aircraft related, but 1.5” signal pistols were in use during WW1 and are still made today.
It was found on very high ground beside a river if that is relevant at all? It's nice to be able to give the landowner some feedback of the finds even if some are just quirky but interesting. ::g

Re: Not your usual shottie!

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:22 pm
by GeorgeMK
Not possible to say how/why it ended up where you found it.
If I had to guess I would say it probably came out of an aircraft. The No.4 MkI* signal pistol had lugs on the outside of the barrel that located into a bracket on aircraft for when signal flares were fired from the aircraft.

Re: Not your usual shottie!

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:45 pm
by Easylife
GeorgeMK wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 11:22 pm
Not possible to say how/why it ended up where you found it.
If I had to guess I would say it probably came out of an aircraft. The No.4 MkI* signal pistol had lugs on the outside of the barrel that located into a bracket on aircraft for when signal flares were fired from the aircraft.
Thanks, that's an interesting possibility. ::g