Recovery speed ... How to KILL depth !

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Re: Recovery speed ... How to KILL depth !

Post by Blackadder43 » Fri May 24, 2019 3:28 pm

I dig everything that doesnt sound like iron to my ears
::g


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Re: Recovery speed ... How to KILL depth !

Post by Saffron » Fri May 24, 2019 3:47 pm

Blackadder43 wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:28 pm
I dig everything that doesnt sound like iron to my ears
::g
Thats the way to ensure you do not miss digging any good targets that the detector locates.

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Re: Recovery speed ... How to KILL depth !

Post by Bors » Fri May 24, 2019 5:07 pm

littleboot wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:18 pm
Bors wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 11:30 am
littleboot wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 9:27 am
Very much my view Bors. ::g

On the subject of .22s....when I had the GMP (which I firmly believe was a machine Minelab used as a springboard in development of the Nox) they gave mixed medium to high warbles. No grunt though so I always dug them. One day I had a already dug two nearby and then got another signal which was similar. I think the fact that it was ever-so-slightly different probably made me dig it anyway (That and the fact I was sheltering under a bush at the time and had nothing else to do. :D )
It was a stater and it was electrum. The mix of silver in the gold is what gave it the higher bit of tone.
So I tried the Nox on the stater and a .22 and the results were very similar. Admittedly it was only an air test) So I still have to dig em. Boo, I said. (Or words to that effect)
And here lies the problem of the same band "bleed ". What can almost fall into the same register band on the digital scale can differ sometimes by just one digit, but that one digit can make a huge difference. So do we simply say, on a hypothetical example,
...." I`m not digging a 16 target value, as I know its an airgun pellet", and then when you get a 17 digital readout do you say again, " Awe it's going to be an Airgun pellet again because its only 1 digit difference so I`m not digging that either."
The point is, can you afford to dismiss it?
And that's when you pit your wits against the machine.
But Bors....I have told you before....ignore the numbers, they are not as accurate as the sounds. :)) On the GMP I had No numbers anyway. As I said it was the 'slight' difference in the sounds. Now would they have com in on the same or slightly different numbers if I had had them available...I can't say. With the Nox the numbers are a rough guide only. What I was testing for was the sound. Its pitch, its shape and character. But I agree....it is fun to pit your wits and I for one wouldn't enjoy the hobby if I had a machine that did all that for me. Boring. Where would the surprise be in digging your hole and discovering what you had in the spoil? None whatsoever.

You misunderstand me to a degree. I was answering Fred's post when HE was giving reference to the numbers he looks at. With reference to quotes such as >>> " I picked a hammered farthing out of a concentration of .22 heads with the same 10 signal because the tone sounded just a little different."

I wasn`t speaking for myself that I 100% use that method, As I keep saying. I look at the numbers when I get a good hit but only as a " quick check " on what the detector thinks. I make my own mind up after quickly analyzing the two informative parts of Sound plus the number/s check.

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Re: Recovery speed ... How to KILL depth !

Post by Guppy » Fri May 24, 2019 9:21 pm

Apologies for deviating away slightly from the actual subject, but I'm still experimenting with
My recovery speed so at present I'm unable to comment or provide imput, however I've taken on board what others are suggesting... that recovery speed affects the iron bios and vice versa.

When i hit a positive signal/target i will sweep it from multiple angles to see if it is a false signal (iron). Presuming the target is iron, then I will hear a conflicting positive signal surrounded negative tones and the target ID will also be erratic, if I sweep again from yet another angle the nox will remain 'silent' indicating that the target is indeed iron and trust me I have deliberately dug them all to make sure, so If my 'positive sounding' target contained a combination of non ferrous and ferrous objects? then my nox would not be able to mask them both (just the iron) which tells me that either; my battery has died, a mole has just made off with my booty, or the target is indeed iron and only iron.

So my question to nox owers is... am I the only one who's nox can distinguish a false signal (iron) by ignoring it (remain silent) when swept from another angle? or could this be a combination my settings on the nox that enable me to achieve this?

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Re: Recovery speed ... How to KILL depth !

Post by Bors » Fri May 24, 2019 10:46 pm

Guppy wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 9:21 pm
Apologies for deviating away slightly from the actual subject, but I'm still experimenting with
My recovery speed so at present I'm unable to comment or provide imput, however I've taken on board what others are suggesting... that recovery speed affects the iron bios and vice versa.

When i hit a positive signal/target i will sweep it from multiple angles to see if it is a false signal (iron). Presuming the target is iron, then I will hear a conflicting positive signal surrounded negative tones and the target ID will also be erratic, if I sweep again from yet another angle the nox will remain 'silent' indicating that the target is indeed iron and trust me I have deliberately dug them all to make sure, so If my 'positive sounding' target contained a combination of non ferrous and ferrous objects? then my nox would not be able to mask them both (just the iron) which tells me that either; my battery has died, a mole has just made off with my booty, or the target is indeed iron and only iron.

So my question to nox owers is... am I the only one who's nox can distinguish a false signal (iron) by ignoring it (remain silent) when swept from another angle? or could this be a combination my settings on the nox that enable me to achieve this?

Hi, guppy, are you using "All metal" along with your settings? IF so,I`m sure your aware that the grunt of the All metal will let you know if your detecting Iron or a good target, but glance at the Display to see what the readout is. If you see any quite high-ish figures also " flicking in ", you`d know its not a straight forward rejection by the Nox, the Nox is just reading the makeup of metal, from the target so then it's down to you as to whether to dig or not then.

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Re: Recovery speed ... How to KILL depth !

Post by Guppy » Sat May 25, 2019 9:34 pm

Bors wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 10:46 pm
Guppy wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 9:21 pm
Apologies for deviating away slightly from the actual subject, but I'm still experimenting with
My recovery speed so at present I'm unable to comment or provide imput, however I've taken on board what others are suggesting... that recovery speed affects the iron bios and vice versa.

When i hit a positive signal/target i will sweep it from multiple angles to see if it is a false signal (iron). Presuming the target is iron, then I will hear a conflicting positive signal surrounded negative tones and the target ID will also be erratic, if I sweep again from yet another angle the nox will remain 'silent' indicating that the target is indeed iron and trust me I have deliberately dug them all to make sure, so If my 'positive sounding' target contained a combination of non ferrous and ferrous objects? then my nox would not be able to mask them both (just the iron) which tells me that either; my battery has died, a mole has just made off with my booty, or the target is indeed iron and only iron.

So my question to nox owers is... am I the only one who's nox can distinguish a false signal (iron) by ignoring it (remain silent) when swept from another angle? or could this be a combination my settings on the nox that enable me to achieve this?

Hi, guppy, are you using "All metal" along with your settings? IF so,I`m sure your aware that the grunt of the All metal will let you know if your detecting Iron or a good target, but glance at the Display to see what the readout is. If you see any quite high-ish figures also " flicking in ", you`d know its not a straight forward rejection by the Nox, the Nox is just reading the makeup of metal, from the target so then it's down to you as to whether to dig or not then.

I'd say around 70% of the time when sweeping from multiple angles the nox will stay silent from at least one of these angles, on the other 30%, if I hear a very very faint iron tone, I'll change to 'all metal' then sweep again and the target tone always disappears completely.

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Re: Recovery speed ... How to KILL depth !

Post by fred » Sat May 25, 2019 10:28 pm

I'm still not entirely sure how you are handling your signals.

I certainly try and avoid doing anything like changing settings when deciding what to dig. If you are unsure enough to do that then you should probably be digging it anyway

As Bors says, use the iron tones to ID definite iron and, if in doubt on deep targets, the numbers can sometimes be a more reliable indicator than the sounds.

Some targets can only be seen from a single, narrow direction. Even if I can't get a lock, if I can get a repeatable positive sound or a reliable high number from any direction then it will probably get dug up. :D
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Re: Recovery speed ... How to KILL depth !

Post by Guppy » Sun May 26, 2019 10:30 am

fred wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 10:28 pm
I'm still not entirely sure how you are handling your signals.

I certainly try and avoid doing anything like changing settings when deciding what to dig. If you are unsure enough to do that then you should probably be digging it anyway

As Bors says, use the iron tones to ID definite iron and, if in doubt on deep targets, the numbers can sometimes be a more reliable indicator than the sounds.

Some targets can only be seen from a single, narrow direction. Even if I can't get a lock, if I can get a repeatable positive sound or a reliable high number from any direction then it will probably get dug up. :D


I believe my theory has been lost in transition. As planed I'm going to create a video shorty to demonstrate. All set to go.. just waiting for better weather.
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Re: Recovery speed ... How to KILL depth !

Post by SuperRed » Sun May 26, 2019 10:47 am

I look forward to watching that ::g
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Re: Recovery speed ... How to KILL depth !

Post by Ten pence! » Sun May 26, 2019 1:05 pm

fred wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 10:28 pm
if in doubt on deep targets, the numbers can sometimes be a more reliable indicator than the sounds.

I completely disagree! The Nox is not especially good when it comes to the numbers, for starters the lower end, between 10 and 15, is very congested and often vague, certainly two other machines I'm familiar with the Racer 2 and F75 are superior in this respect and more accurate, however Minelab have given the Nox one of the best audio's out there, why not rely on that? Some signals will not give numbers at all as the audio is too weak to generate a reading, again it's best to forget this is like an old style Minelab that does have accurate target ID,because it clearly isn't!

You might get away with numbers on the beach where there are a limited range of targets, ie mainly modern coins, but it'd certainly not work like that inland, for instance I can get a reading of 10, from experience I know this could be a brass rimfire bullet, a bit of lead or even a gold quarter stater! In multi tones they will all sound a bit different, what people should be attempting to learn is the various nuances between signals, you can get an idea of shape, depth, size, iron content and so on entirely through the audio, these days I rarely look at the screen, an exception was the lid of a silver snuff box that blew my ears off with a 35! I only checked that number because such signals and it's associated tone are so rare! In fact I'd go as far as to say cover the screen up and force yourself to learn what the machine is telling you via the audio. :))

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Re: Recovery speed ... How to KILL depth !

Post by fred » Sun May 26, 2019 3:55 pm

Ten pence! wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 1:05 pm
fred wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 10:28 pm
if in doubt on deep targets, the numbers can sometimes be a more reliable indicator than the sounds.

I completely disagree! The Nox is not especially good when it comes to the numbers, for starters the lower end, between 10 and 15, is very congested and often vague, certainly two other machines I'm familiar with the Racer 2 and F75 are superior in this respect and more accurate, however Minelab have given the Nox one of the best audio's out there, why not rely on that? Some signals will not give numbers at all as the audio is too weak to generate a reading, again it's best to forget this is like an old style Minelab that does have accurate target ID,because it clearly isn't!

You might get away with numbers on the beach where there are a limited range of targets, ie mainly modern coins, but it'd certainly not work like that inland, for instance I can get a reading of 10, from experience I know this could be a brass rimfire bullet, a bit of lead or even a gold quarter stater! In multi tones they will all sound a bit different, what people should be attempting to learn is the various nuances between signals, you can get an idea of shape, depth, size, iron content and so on entirely through the audio, these days I rarely look at the screen, an exception was the lid of a silver snuff box that blew my ears off with a 35! I only checked that number because such signals and it's associated tone are so rare! In fact I'd go as far as to say cover the screen up and force yourself to learn what the machine is telling you via the audio. :))

The first quote is only a small extract from what I said! It really does need to be seen in context. Also remember that we don't detect with quite the same setup so what works for me may not work for you. :D

If I get an iron tone target that doesn't sound quite right for iron, perhaps a bit clipped, and winkling gives some unexpected high tones but not good enought to get a lock I'll check the numbers. Sometimes (but certainly not always) the numbers will lock on better than the sounds. I have no idea why that is, possibly something to do with me preferring to run in All Metal?

The second part I described exactly the same as you have, including the assertion that the Nox numberical ID isn't much good on it's own. I did stress that coinshooting on beaches was more or less the only occasion when the numbers can provide a large part of a definitive target ID for me. That said the numbers are there so it certainly doesn't hurt to glance at them when you are in other locations. Sometimes they might even help, I'm definitely getting pretty good at spotting pre decimal coppers at depth these days (nice small, well rounded, positive tone reading 21/22). I just wish that I could say the same about identifying gold staters or Roman denarii though. ::g
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Re: Recovery speed ... How to KILL depth !

Post by Ten pence! » Sun May 26, 2019 5:08 pm

I must admit I've never owned any machine that gave a better indication of what the target might be via the numbers verses the tones! :D I could easily set up a large bent nail to give a positive number at depth, but I'd not need to dig it because I'd hear the inconsistency of the signal, the only ferrous target that will occasionally fool me is large rusted washers, I personally cannot see any point in digging by numbers given that Minelab have endowed the Nox with such a descriptive audio.

I can recall someone once saying that all car drivers should be made to ride a moped for a year before getting a car licence, they would then better understand environmental conditions, by the same token I think a lot of Nox users should be forced to use a GMP for a few months as well, and for similar reasons! :D

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Re: Recovery speed ... How to KILL depth !

Post by littleboot » Sun May 26, 2019 5:28 pm

u;@ u;@ u;@ u;@
This. With knobs on.
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Re: Recovery speed ... How to KILL depth !

Post by Bors » Sun May 26, 2019 5:36 pm

Quote Fred ,..." If I get an iron tone target that doesn't sound quite right for iron, perhaps a bit clipped, and winkling gives some unexpected high tones but not good enought to get a lock I'll check the numbers.".

And I do that too and I find it works fine. ::g
You see we are developing our own "ways" of ID-ing and what's good for Tom, mightn't be good for Harry, but as long as each of us gets a good end result, does it matter who does what? It may be disagreeable to others but were not using others detectors, so what does it matter?
It's a bit unnecessary even to say anyone disagrees with someone else on these methods of ID`ing individually mentioned, because it's all about what works for YOU and it's irrelevant whether it works for anyone else really.
(I think I just said the same thing three different ways then ,trying to get my point across ) =))

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Re: Recovery speed ... How to KILL depth !

Post by fred » Sun May 26, 2019 6:05 pm

Ten pence! wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 5:08 pm

I can recall someone once saying that all car drivers should be made to ride a moped for a year before getting a car licence, they would then better understand environmental conditions, by the same token I think a lot of Nox users should be forced to use a GMP for a few months as well, and for similar reasons! :D

I think that advocating torture (except between consenting adults) might be against the forum rules! :D
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