Packing it in due to Irish laws

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laoisdeus
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Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by laoisdeus » Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:46 am

So its Christmas week and as I sit on break during the night shift I have accepted an offer to sell my xp deus thus ending my favourite hobby for now.

My main reasons being
1. I have no more permissions left to do

2. Travelling to the U.K is unreasonable anymore with a family to feed although I loved every trip and had some great times

3. Metal detecting is illegal in Ireland and I find beach detecting pointless as my interest is not money or lost jewellery, Its simply the social just the hobby. I get a buzz from finding a modern(ish) coin of my birth year

I wish all my friends in the U.K a fantastic and happy Christmas and happy hunting :-)



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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by tigtog » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:22 am

... so if you own 10 acres of land in Ireland you cannot detect it ?
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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by Mac91 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:01 am

An awful pity. It's such a shame the attitude the govt takes to detecting, what irks me is they don't realise that those who destroy historic and protected sites are the type of people who would do it regardless of the law; the law only hurts us that detect for the right reasons and love our history.

It's exactly the same here in the North as it is in the 26 counties too

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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by Lowland » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:06 am

Sorry to hear this lad,
I would go mental in your position
Gutted for you.
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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by Mac91 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:09 am

tigtog wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:22 am
Bloody hell so if you own 10 acres of land in Ireland you cannot detect it ?
It is illegal to search for archaeological objects. While legal to look for modern coins/jewellery, machinery etc finding and digging up a historical artifact (even if you're uncertain what it is) can land you in serious hot water. Not long ago finds were posted the national museum because the finder couldn't come forward for fear of prosecution

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38289299

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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by At Digger » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:30 am

laoisdeus wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:46 am
So its Christmas week and as I sit on break during the night shift I have accepted an offer to sell my xp deus thus ending my favourite hobby for now.

My main reasons being
1. I have no more permissions left to do

2. Travelling to the U.K is unreasonable anymore with a family to feed although I loved every trip and had some great times

3. Metal detecting is illegal in Ireland and I find beach detecting pointless as my interest is not money or lost jewellery, Its simply the social just the hobby. I get a buzz from finding a modern(ish) coin of my birth year

I wish all my friends in the U.K a fantastic and happy Christmas and happy hunting :-)
METAL DETECTING IS NOT ILLEGAL IN IRELAND that is just selective wording put out by the NMI ( National Museum of Ireland).
The actual wording is :
It is illegal to intentionally search for Archeological items using a metal detector, this may include some 20th century items.

Now we are in the 21st century ( 17 years in ) and the law is based on intentions.
As long as you have the landowners permission to detect on their land and there are no areas of Archeological interest ( Red dots) then you can legally use your metal detector.
PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT.

If you want the full wording of The law regarding metal detecting in Ireland let me know and I will dig ( pardon the pun ) it out for you later and send you a PM with a nice detailed letter j have direct from the National Monuments Service which governs the Museum.

This sort of selective wording is what causes problems with the law, people selecting the words to suit their own cause.

PS:

I have property in Ireland, my house is a protected structure but the land is not protected, I had to research the Irish law on that basis and I got emails replies sent directly to me.
If you do find anything of Archeological interest you have 96 hours to inform the Gardai ( police in Ireland ), National Museum of Ireland or your local museum.
Failure to do so is breaking the law.

I hope this helps clear up the intentional selective wording used.

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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by jeap » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:58 am

Cheers At Digger, it's easy to get taken in by the wrong wording so having more knowledge helps dispel any myths from developing.

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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by geoman » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:07 am

Not a good situation at all. It is a pity that there are such entrenched ideas which negate the opportunity to add details of random casual losses to the archaeological record.

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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by At Digger » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:15 am

The law in Ireland is something similar to the UK, avoid areas that are protected by law. Nighthawking or ( scumbags) as I call them are everywhere and the law is to protect national heritage from the people who intentionally seek to find Archeological items to personal gain ( profit ).
I agree with the Irish law in principal ( OK , there are some silly unclear parts to it but basically it is there for a reason) and you can LEGALLY metal detect within the law.
You just have to know and abide by the law, after that its the same as here.

Parts that I dont agree with would be.
No distinctive distance mentioned to keep from a protected area or structure.
May include 20th century items !!! Really ( like what ) 1920`s 30`s 40`s penny or a button from when ??
Three are a lot of restrictions but basically its common sense.

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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by oldartefact » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:23 am

At Digger wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:30 am

METAL DETECTING IS NOT ILLEGAL IN IRELAND that is just selective wording put out by the NMI ( National Museum of Ireland).
The actual wording is :
It is illegal to intentionally search for Archeological items using a metal detector, this may include some 20th century items.

Now we are in the 21st century ( 17 years in ) and the law is based on intentions.
As long as you have the landowners permission to detect on their land and there are no areas of Archeological interest ( Red dots) then you can legally use your metal detector.
PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT.
So without trying to be obtuse are you saying it is legal to intentionally detect for Archeological items, so long as you are not on a Red dot site? ... If so would that make detecting in Eire similar to the UK .. ie, you can detect anywhere with permission so long as its not a protected site ... eg. scheduled monument, etc etc etc.
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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by At Digger » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:35 am

oldartefact wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:23 am
At Digger wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:30 am

METAL DETECTING IS NOT ILLEGAL IN IRELAND that is just selective wording put out by the NMI ( National Museum of Ireland).
The actual wording is :
It is illegal to intentionally search for Archeological items using a metal detector, this may include some 20th century items.

Now we are in the 21st century ( 17 years in ) and the law is based on intentions.
As long as you have the landowners permission to detect on their land and there are no areas of Archeological interest ( Red dots) then you can legally use your metal detector.
PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT.
So without trying to be obtuse are you saying it is legal to intentionally detect for Archeological items, so long as you are not on a Red dot site? ... If so would that make detecting in Eire similar to the UK .. ie, you can detect anywhere with permission so long as its not a protected site ... eg. scheduled monument, etc etc etc.

"it is ILLEGAL to use a metal detector to search for Archeological items "
regardless of were you are, end of it.
The law includes some item from the 20th century ( at their discretion ) that is on o the points I disagree with and needs to be made clear.
What items from the 20th are of interest ?

The law is not clear but it is based on " intentions " and used by the National Museum of Ireland to restrict the use and stop interest in the hobby growing.

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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by oldartefact » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:18 am

At Digger wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:35 am
oldartefact wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:23 am
At Digger wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:30 am

METAL DETECTING IS NOT ILLEGAL IN IRELAND that is just selective wording put out by the NMI ( National Museum of Ireland).
The actual wording is :
It is illegal to intentionally search for Archeological items using a metal detector, this may include some 20th century items.

Now we are in the 21st century ( 17 years in ) and the law is based on intentions.
As long as you have the landowners permission to detect on their land and there are no areas of Archeological interest ( Red dots) then you can legally use your metal detector.
PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT.
So without trying to be obtuse are you saying it is legal to intentionally detect for Archeological items, so long as you are not on a Red dot site? ... If so would that make detecting in Eire similar to the UK .. ie, you can detect anywhere with permission so long as its not a protected site ... eg. scheduled monument, etc etc etc.

"it is ILLEGAL to use a metal detector to search for Archeological items "
regardless of were you are, end of it.
The law includes some item from the 20th century ( at their discretion ) that is on o the points I disagree with and needs to be made clear.
What items from the 20th are of interest ?

The law is not clear but it is based on " intentions " and used by the National Museum of Ireland to restrict the use and stop interest in the hobby growing.
I am so confused now ... I thought it was just the red dots that cant be detected. I guess the question is if one detects a field with the intention of finding old objects, is it illegal or not? If as I suspect its illegal, would it be okay to detect the same field on the basis that it was one's intent was not to find old objects. And given that a persons intent cant be proved one way or the other, then no crime can ever be shown to have been committed. Would that be a fair way of setting the situation out?
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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by Mac91 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:31 am

As I see it it's impractical to detect within the law. The issue is that the definition of an archaeological object is at their discretion. So does that mean every time you find a victorian penny or musket shot you have to take it to the gardaí or museum? Common items found detecting, but when some 20th fall in to their definition it's hard to see how they wouldn't. It would only take a few trips to the museum with such finds until they start accusing you of searching for them intentionally

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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by francis » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:41 am

laoisdeus wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:46 am
So its Christmas week and as I sit on break during the night shift I have accepted an offer to sell my xp deus thus ending my favourite hobby for now.

My main reasons being
1. I have no more permissions left to do

2. Travelling to the U.K is unreasonable anymore with a family to feed although I loved every trip and had some great times

3. Metal detecting is illegal in Ireland and I find beach detecting pointless as my interest is not money or lost jewellery, Its simply the social just the hobby. I get a buzz from finding a modern(ish) coin of my birth year

I wish all my friends in the U.K a fantastic and happy Christmas and happy hunting :-)
Don't give up so easy. It's perfectly legal to detect on land that does not have a red dot on it. Even if it has one, as long as you stay 30m, (or a field), away from it , your not breaking the law.
(Confirmed by gardai to me and others). Do yourself a favour and ask any relations or friends if they know a farmer. Thats the best way to obtain permission I have found.
GL.

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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by Fisher1266X » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:50 am

At Digger wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:35 am
"it is ILLEGAL to use a metal detector to search for Archeological items "
regardless of were you are, end of it.
The law includes some item from the 20th century ( at their discretion ) that is on o the points I disagree with and needs to be made clear.
What items from the 20th are of interest ?

The law is not clear but it is based on " intentions " and used by the National Museum of Ireland to restrict the use and stop interest in the hobby growing.
Than you AD for the clarification of a set of rules that "appear" to be unclear.
You make it quite simple:
  • Do not detect on land that is identified as protected or listed
  • Away from these site; Do not intentionally search for Archaeological items
Simples! ::g

If you did accidentally came across an "archaeological item", you have 96 hours to report it to the relevant authorities.

After all, they would seriously find it hard to prove "intention" if you were on a site with no known history documented there. Even it was documented, it would have to be easily available and not buried in some museum vault covered in dust.

I had the same scenario in the birding world I am involved with; proving that you "intentionally" disturbed a Schedule One species of bird.
It was laughed out of court!

So laois, I would take the advice of those (in this thread) that have had the experience of detecting in Ireland so that you may carry on without any fear ;)

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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by At Digger » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:35 pm

oldartefact wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:18 am
At Digger wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:35 am
oldartefact wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:23 am


So without trying to be obtuse are you saying it is legal to intentionally detect for Archeological items, so long as you are not on a Red dot site? ... If so would that make detecting in Eire similar to the UK .. ie, you can detect anywhere with permission so long as its not a protected site ... eg. scheduled monument, etc etc etc.

"it is ILLEGAL to use a metal detector to search for Archeological items "
regardless of were you are, end of it.
The law includes some item from the 20th century ( at their discretion ) that is on o the points I disagree with and needs to be made clear.
What items from the 20th are of interest ?

The law is not clear but it is based on " intentions " and used by the National Museum of Ireland to restrict the use and stop interest in the hobby growing.
I am so confused now ... I thought it was just the red dots that cant be detected. I guess the question is if one detects a field with the intention of finding old objects, is it illegal or not? If as I suspect its illegal, would it be okay to detect the same field on the basis that it was one's intent was not to find old objects. And given that a persons intent cant be proved one way or the other, then no crime can ever be shown to have been committed. Would that be a fair way of setting the situation out?
YES.
NOW you got the crazy Irish law. Its about your intentions. When i go out over there i look for Euro's or the hammer that the farmer lost. If i find anything of Archie intetest then it was an acidental find ::g

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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by At Digger » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:38 pm

Fisher1266X wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:50 am
At Digger wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:35 am
"it is ILLEGAL to use a metal detector to search for Archeological items "
regardless of were you are, end of it.
The law includes some item from the 20th century ( at their discretion ) that is on o the points I disagree with and needs to be made clear.
What items from the 20th are of interest ?

The law is not clear but it is based on " intentions " and used by the National Museum of Ireland to restrict the use and stop interest in the hobby growing.
Than you AD for the clarification of a set of rules that "appear" to be unclear.
You make it quite simple:
  • Do not detect on land that is identified as protected or listed
  • Away from these site; Do not intentionally search for Archaeological items
Simples! ::g

If you did accidentally came across an "archaeological item", you have 96 hours to report it to the relevant authorities.

After all, they would seriously find it hard to prove "intention" if you were on a site with no known history documented there. Even it was documented, it would have to be easily available and not buried in some museum vault covered in dust.

I had the same scenario in the birding world I am involved with; proving that you "intentionally" disturbed a Schedule One species of bird.
It was laughed out of court!

So laois, I would take the advice of those (in this thread) that have had the experience of detecting in Ireland so that you may carry on without any fear ;)

Paul
I am delighted to see you understand the Irish law, its easy when you detect within the law ::g

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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by shaggybfc » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:42 pm

When obtaining the permission, could you not ask the land owner if they had lost anything and offer to find that for them, document it and then you have evidence that you were not looking for artifacts, but for a lost item. If you find an artifact, then you can openly report it to the authorities.
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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by laoisdeus » Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:00 pm

The thing is iv been doing it for 7 years and the restrictions here do my head in, if I did find a hoard containing a gold challice for stereotypical example its not like I have a black book of ivory and baby dealers to sell it to, regular people like ourselves are the ones to lose out, metal detecting..possible 5 years in prison..rape..2?

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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by At Digger » Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:05 pm

shaggybfc wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:42 pm
When obtaining the permission, could you not ask the land owner if they had lost anything and offer to find that for them, document it and then you have evidence that you were not looking for artifacts, but for a lost item. If you find an artifact, then you can openly report it to the authorities.
That is how its done. Farmers are always loosing hammers out in the fields when repairing the fencing on their land. ::g

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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by At Digger » Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:14 pm

laoisdeus wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:00 pm
The thing is iv been doing it for 7 years and the restrictions here do my head in, if I did find a hoard containing a gold challice for stereotypical example its not like I have a black book of ivory and baby dealers to sell it to, regular people like ourselves are the ones to lose out, metal detecting..possible 5 years in prison..rape..2?
The magic eord as you said it " possible"
It all depends on your intent. If you accidently find something then its an unintentional find.

Same land for 7 years !!!

Wjat about the land next to your permission. Who is the owner ?
Ask your current permisdion owner who his neighbour is and you will have plenty more land to detect on.

Anything of importsnce like " your hoard or Gold chalice then hand it in to your local museum by registered post with no personal details on it.
Just location ( if your farmer agrees ) the majority of farmers / landowners will NOT agree to deal with the Museum. A lot of bad feeling there from the past.
As i said. Common sense is all thats needed to detect within the law.

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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by francis » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:51 pm

Currently looking for a good chain and an iron bar that my farmer lost, honestly!! They are always loosing stuff. You're spot on about farmers and museum Archies.. And don't forget once you do declare a find, then a nice red dot gets placed on that location.
It's a great hobby, don't let the crazily worded rules defer from its enjoyment!

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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by Twit » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:32 pm

Just to add that I have detected in countries with similar laws.

To the average person their position in law is not made clear, that is to say suspicion is left to hang over them, and it is never exactly clear what the limits are ... so you are left detecting with the thought you might be doing something wrong, that you might get pounced on.... in spite of advice to the contrary. Dissuasive only, necessarily maybe, but not exactly helpful either for anyone wanting to take up the hobby.

It is actually a good starting point for self regulation of the hobby - I know in Spain small clubs started up on the basis of guaranteeing legal backing to their members as long as the members followed the COP .

?

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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by Twit » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:55 pm

At Digger wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:14 pm
laoisdeus wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:00 pm
The thing is iv been doing it for 7 years and the restrictions here do my head in, if I did find a hoard containing a gold challice for stereotypical example its not like I have a black book of ivory and baby dealers to sell it to, regular people like ourselves are the ones to lose out, metal detecting..possible 5 years in prison..rape..2?
The magic eord as you said it " possible"
It all depends on your intent. If you accidently find something then its an unintentional find.

Same land for 7 years !!!

Wjat about the land next to your permission. Who is the owner ?
Ask your current permisdion owner who his neighbour is and you will have plenty more land to detect on.

Anything of importsnce like " your hoard or Gold chalice then hand it in to your local museum by registered post with no personal details on it.
Just location ( if your farmer agrees ) the majority of farmers / landowners will NOT agree to deal with the Museum. A lot of bad feeling there from the past.
As i said. Common sense is all thats needed to detect within the law.

I know in several countries objects are not handed in, the reasons are various :

People feel they have a right to the object.
Authorities may cause trouble.
They don't want the site revealed to the public.
They see authorities "confiscate" everything without reward, then watch as museums auction off the pieces to fund themselves.
They think objects are just going to be warehoused.
They don't agree with the politics or state of the country.
If they declare lots, or lots then less, authorities may clamp down ( as seems in UK maybe)
They don't like the attitude or delay of authorities.

Etc.

Monetary reward is only a small part of the story.

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Re: Packing it in due to Irish laws

Post by liamnolan » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:02 pm

AT Digger has explained it well. The NMI archaeologists would prefer to see items rot in the ground than to have it detected and thats what we are trying to change. Fear of disclosure of finding anything of historical interest is preventing Ireland heritage coming to light.
So carry on detecting but be aware of the legislation and do not rely on the goodwill of the farmer who may have a protected site or the green light from the Gardai. Its all about INTENT to find hammies etc and so it would be difficult to prove that in court. Archaeological items belong to the State and must be handed in. Lots happening behind the scenes to get things changed, contact me via a PM for clarification, Liam :;@
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