Anyone recognise this cartridge head type?

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3pinplug
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Anyone recognise this cartridge head type?

Post by 3pinplug » Wed May 08, 2019 8:22 pm

Hi all
Found this when in Germany recently detecting on a relatives property, it looks different to what I have seen before, probably run of the mill for you guys but can someone please tell me what type of casing this is and whetehr american, british or german? Also what may have fired it if you know?
It looks like an "R" not sure if the other is a "4" or an "A" and 43 at the bottom of the pic.
I have put some measurements on the photos although its not fully complete, the end looks odd so I thought I would post as sure someone here would junp straight in with an I.d. ::g
Thanks
Mark
casing3.jpg
casing2.jpg
casing1.jpg
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Chrisandnige
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Re: Anyone recognise this catridges head type?

Post by Chrisandnige » Wed May 08, 2019 8:25 pm

Hi, I'm not 100% but I think the 43 means the year it was made so ww2 era if that's any help.

Chris.

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Re: Anyone recognise this catridges head type?

Post by Muddyknee » Wed May 08, 2019 8:42 pm

RA is probably Remington Arms,which likely makes that a 30.06 cartridge.
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Re: Anyone recognise this catridges head type?

Post by 3pinplug » Wed May 08, 2019 8:45 pm

Hi Chris,
Many thanks for the info, its the type of catridge I am stuck with, its probably run of the mill but not a style I have seen before.
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Re: Anyone recognise this cartridge head type?

Post by GeorgeMK » Wed May 08, 2019 8:55 pm

As said above, this is a .30-06 manufactured by Remington Arms Co., Bridgeport, CT. USA.

Used in Springfield and Garand rifles, also in .30 cal Browning machine guns (there are some other .30-06 calibre military arms). The ring crimped primer was one of the solutions to primers backing out and causing jams in military weapons.

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Re: Anyone recognise this cartridge head type?

Post by 3pinplug » Wed May 08, 2019 9:38 pm

Hi muddykee and georgemk thankyou for the I.D and the info regarding the gun etc,very much appreciated you certainly know your stuff!
Happy hunting!
Regards
Mark
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Re: Anyone recognise this cartridge head type?

Post by MilitaryMetalMagnut » Thu May 09, 2019 1:08 am

Hi Mark,

Gosh! Now that's something a little bit different from the norm.
As has been stated, American issue .30-06, made by Remington Arsenal in 1943.

What makes this different, is the ringed grove on the base around the primer. This ringed grove indites that is was for aircraft use. The ringed grove is to help reduce weight (Though I'm not sure just how effective that really is!).

I have in my personal collection, an empty box of .30-06 that was made by Remington Arsenal for the RAF (Labelled as '.300', instead of .30-06, as that was the British designation). It had only one cartridge in it dating to 1941, which I replaced a bullet into the cartridge, for display purposes. Do excuse the condition! The box was given to me by a chap who kept it in his garage since the war!

Image

Image

Image

Note that my .30-06 made for the RAF also has this ringed grove. ::g

Great find, and certainly a keeper, as it is different to the normal .30-06 that is found. ::g ::g ::g

Best regards,

Simon
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Re: Anyone recognise this cartridge head type?

Post by GeorgeMK » Thu May 09, 2019 2:38 am

MilitaryMetalMagnut wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 1:08 am
Hi Mark,

Gosh! Now that's something a little bit different from the norm.
As has been stated, American issue .30-06, made by Remington Arsenal in 1943.

What makes this different, is the ringed grove on the base around the primer. This ringed grove indites that is was for aircraft use. The ringed grove is to help reduce weight (Though I'm not sure just how effective that really is!).

I have in my personal collection, an empty box of .30-06 that was made by Remington Arsenal for the RAF (Labelled as '.300', instead of .30-06, as that was the British designation). It had only one cartridge in it dating to 1941, which I replaced a bullet into the cartridge, for display purposes. Do excuse the condition! The box was given to me by a chap who kept it in his garage since the war!

Note that my .30-06 made for the RAF also has this ringed grove. ::g

Great find, and certainly a keeper, as it is different to the normal .30-06 that is found. ::g ::g ::g

Best regards,

Simon
RA is Remington Arms Company, not Remington Arsenal.

The ring crimp was to prevent primer set back upon firing. Developed in 1918 for use in aircraft guns, it was a French invention. Remington used a deep ring crimp for this purpose, I would be interested to know what reference source suggests it was to help reduce weight.

The .30-06 supplied to the RAF under lend lease apparently had problems, so was subsequently restricted to RAF ground use, and much was supplied to the Home Guard for use in lend lease M1917 rifles and other arms such as the .30-06 Lewis.

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Re: Anyone recognise this cartridge head type?

Post by GeorgeMK » Thu May 09, 2019 3:53 am

A couple of quotes regarding the ring crimped Remington ammunition, from old posts on the International Ammunition Association members forum.

(RayMeketa) “The ring crimp was requested by the UK for the production of the Remington contract rounds and Remington asked for and received permission to use the same crimp on ammunition produced for U.S. wartime use. UK contract ammunition has a different headstamp. Remington used that style crimp on some of the ammunition they produced as early as 1940 and as late as 1945 (or later?).”

(DocAV) “The Reason The UK requested the “Ring Crimp” was expressly for increased retention of the Primer in aviation Use… During WW I (1917=8) US.C.Co. also made .30 cal expressly for use in Marlin aircraft Guns, with this ring ( and additional stab crimps as well). and the design idea was carried on into the US standardised “AN-M2” ammunition, which was for the US Army Air Corps, and the US Naval Air units ( a common Aircraft ammo). The Primers were also made to a higher standard, initially…by WW II, all primers (Both in UK and USA) were made to the same Higher standard, so then any ammo could be classed as “Aviation.””

(DocAV) “ammo was “downgraded” to ground use after one or two years, as well as any which had been used in the Air at normal operational altitudes ie, a Plane’s Guns were completely re-supplied when it landed after a sortie, whether it used all its ammo or not. High altitude, extreme cold, changes in humidity all affected Primer reliability, both in synchronised guns (few) and Remote Wing Guns (Many). Even for the Gunner-operated MGs in Single or Turret mountings, a primer failure or jam was life-threatening.”

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Re: Anyone recognise this cartridge head type?

Post by RRPG » Thu May 09, 2019 9:31 am

Great conversation!

I have found a large number of these cartridge cases on both army and Home Guard training areas, so definitely used in ground fired weapons an awful lot. Indeed, when you think about it, there were very few 30cal armed aircraft used in the ETO, so the chances it came from an aircraft are pretty slim to say the least!
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Re: Anyone recognise this cartridge head type?

Post by 3pinplug » Thu May 09, 2019 10:28 am

Thankyou all, I have found a few casings over the years but this will definitely be a prized keeper , thought it looked different and would check on here, this forum never disappoints there are some extremely knowledgeable people on here and i thank you all for answering my question, its very much appreciated!
::g
All the best
Mark
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Re: Anyone recognise this cartridge head type?

Post by MilitaryMetalMagnut » Thu May 09, 2019 11:43 am

GeorgeMK wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 2:38 am

RA is Remington Arms Company, not Remington Arsenal.

The ring crimp was to prevent primer set back upon firing. Developed in 1918 for use in aircraft guns, it was a French invention. Remington used a deep ring crimp for this purpose, I would be interested to know what reference source suggests it was to help reduce weight.

The .30-06 supplied to the RAF under lend lease apparently had problems, so was subsequently restricted to RAF ground use, and much was supplied to the Home Guard for use in lend lease M1917 rifles and other arms such as the .30-06 Lewis.

Woops! Beg your pardon. It was 1am, lol.

The box and cartridge was one of the first things in my collection, wich I’ve had for nearly 13 years. I was told at the time the grove was for weight rediction, but we live and learn! :) I was partly right with the aircraft part... :)

Great source of information, matey ::g

Best regards,

Simon
Military Firearms and Ammunition Historian, and published author to that effect! 12 years experience of collecting, researching military ordnance and weaponry!

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