Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

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Christoph1945

Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by Christoph1945 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:18 pm

Wansdyke44 wrote:To produce a gallery of pictures of dangerous items would serve little help, and would not prevent a disaster happening
I am not sure that I agree with that statement. A 20mm cannon projectile looks rather like a rusty sausage, after 70 years on a salty beach and has very little resemblance to its original shape or form.

If shown a photograph of the said item; people would be less likely to start trying to break off the rust to see what is under it. After all, there is no way of knowing if the said projectile was HE, Incenduary, or armour piercing.

As for the MOD; they are very helpfull. They confirmed that my beach was demined in 1945 but said that they were unable to confirm that all mines were removed. Neither could they confirm that any mines were left!

Chris



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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by RRPG » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:08 am

Let's get this into some context. To be of any use at all, the gallery would need to show each item at various stages of 'decomposition', as different soils/sand have different effects on metal. So it isn't just one shot of a 20mm projectile, it would be 10 or 20 to make the reference complete. I have previously found 20mm heads fully encased in concretion on beaches, and the only way to find out what is inside is to remove the concretion. Pictures will not stop me doing that as I can't see the item in the first place !

So, you would need multiple pictures of each item. But what about the items themselves? You would need........ (numbers in brackets are my estimate of the number of various types within each category you would need).......

Cartridges (15)
Bullets (90)
Detonators (30)
Grenades (15 WW2, 90 if you include WW1)
Small calibre shells (20, 60 if you include WW1)
Large calibre shells (40, 100 if you include WW1)
Aerial bombs (30)
Incendiary bombs (5)
Chemical weapons (30)
Mines (50)
Explosives and their containers (50)
Mortars (30)
Rockets (10)

That's just the main categories, what about the finds that are parts of a grenade or mortar or bomb or mine or............ The list goes on and on. And this is just a list of ONE of the forces. You would need separate lists and pictures of American, German, Russian, Japanese, French..........ALL other forces.

As you can see, the list would be endless and serve no purpose.

Our current approach is bang on the money. Advise people to leave anything they are unsure about in situ, take a picture, see if we can ID it. Also advise that if you are not 100% certain the item is inert, leave it alone.

And lastly, even after 20 odd years of collecting ordnance and nothing but ordnance, my knowledge is excellent. BUT, even with all my knowledge, even I can still get caught out at times. I can assure you that a picture database will NOT stop this happening. In fact, I believe a picture database would be dangerous as it would encourage inexperienced people to ID items themselves and make them think they know what they're doing. We don't want this, EVER. If you aren't used to recovering old WW relics, don't damn well mess with them !

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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by Christoph1945 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:40 am

Hi RRPG,

your points have been taken and duely noted.

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to reply.

Chris ::g

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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by Wansdyke44 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:04 am

Christoph1945 wrote:Hi RRPG,

your points have been taken and duely noted.

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to reply.

Chris ::g
;f
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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by Dave8472 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:38 am

RRPG wrote: Our current approach is bang on the money. Advise people to leave anything they are unsure about in situ, take a picture, see if we can ID it. Also advise that if you are not 100% certain the item is inert, leave it alone.
RRPG
Totally agree ::g

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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by chesters4 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:15 am

its a bit less risky than you think .when i worked on restoring the canal we started finding so much military gear the bomb disposal team started and finished when we did.
any hand grenades were put aside for offsite disposal but the hundreds of bullets and lee enfields dredged up were simply placed on the tow path last thing and the hymacs tracked over them a few times and they were dumped in the recovered mud if it was onsite or dumper-ed off to the spoil heaps if it wasnt .
plenty of morters even a 500lb bomb were found and all didnt get kid glove treatment.

the dangerous stuff is phosphorous but most buried shells have probably rusted enough for it to dissipate unseen.

the dangerous realy stuff is grandads shell by the fireside which looks fired but contains the propellent in nice fresh and dry conditions and silly lads playing with fresh ammo off the ranges

i'm not saying dont be carefull but most of what you find is inert ,even a police firearms chap grudgingly sent out to recover a load of bullets i found said just bury them again ,he didnt say run around taping off the vicinity and causing commotion in the neighbours

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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by Wansdyke44 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:24 am

Some people just need to use be little bit of common sense. ;)

Don't tell RRPG the location of the canal - I can hear his car starting up already :))
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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by RRPG » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:54 am

I've got my keys ready............


Oh, and whilst your story is interesting chesters4, I don't think people should be assuming that 'most of the stuff you find is inert'. It only takes one piece that isn't inert for them to have major regrets about taking it home.

And I am afraid you are incorrect about phos rounds. I have found spent phos mortar shells that, when the mud is removed from the inside whilst on site, spark back into life as well as the day they were fired. This is why I remove the mud on site.....phos lingers for a LONG time and a rusty casing doesn't mean it is safe.

This thread really isn't about small arms ammo, but is about keeping people safe. I agree that the majority of ammo below 50cal is relatively safe even if unfired, but is illegal to possess. And if you'd found some 20mm cartridges in your canal and your tracked vehicle had gone over them, I can assure you your story would have had a different tone altogether !

EOD nowadays blow grenades, mortars, 20mm projectiles and most other ordnance in situ as it is just to dangerous to move. Who wants to move a live 2inch HE mortar, knowing the firing pin is resting on the detonator, just waiting for the slightest knock to set it... BOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMM !

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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by chesters4 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:53 pm

we never found much 20mm stuff ,just enough a day to play skittles in the lunch hour with it and dump in the mud after the hymac finished with it .no booooms nothing it was a spectacular in its quietness.
most ofcourse was missed we couldn't see every bucket full so i expect a fair bit went into the storage areas or some council land nearby that was used to receive the countless lorry loads dumped on it.
the guns looked ok but if you dried them out the butts twisted like cokkscrews and the metal flaked away to rust .
a great time was had by all

probably 20+ odd motorbikes and scooters were thrown onto the mud but the local scrap chaps had them away no doubt lots of other bits and bobs too ,the bikes were no good all were seized otherwise the engines would have been sold on ,we think most were stolen by squaddies to get back to camp on then dumped in the canal to hide

we even found a 12"? shell case that was used by the officers club as a last orders bell that had disappeared many years before

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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by Wansdyke44 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:04 pm

A lesser man might be forgiven for thinking that the waterways of Gt Britain are chocked full of old rusty rifles just waiting to be found!

(RRPG gets out his big magnet) h;@

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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by chesters4 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:08 pm

this section was ,the section above was wet dredged so theres probably a vast amount still there ,mostly ww1 stuff but a bit of ww2

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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by RRPG » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:35 pm

I do have two 60kilo lift magnets on the end of 100 metres of rope AND a large grapling hook so point me at the canal and I'm there :)
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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by Wansdyke44 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:45 pm

RRPG wrote:I do have two 60kilo lift magnets on the end of 100 metres of rope AND a large grapling hook so point me at the canal and I'm there :)
Take a ticket and join the queue RRPG! ;)
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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by bobbymoore » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:54 am

This is a superb thread and should be read by everyone who goes out metal detecting.
My Father and Grandfather worked at Tilbury docks after the war on what they called the "chute"
Basically it was a huge set of pipes stretching into the Thames which sucked up gravel etc to be used to reclaim land which now houses the Cargill factory (grain terminal),close to Grays Yacht Club.
They both told me years ago that every now and then it would suck up some ordinance and blow everything to kingdom come ,pipes and all.. i remember my dad recalling the stories of how it would totally destroy the massive pipework and how work would stop for days sometimes for all the unexploded stuff to be dealt with..and he described literally hundreds of bullets ,bombs and all sorts of other nasties.
Fortunately for me those stories remained in my memory and when i was a teenager out with my first detector (c scope) i always had it in mind..luckily i have never come across anything ..so far..
And ive never ever been anywhere near Grays beach (not really a "beach" but thats what its called) with my machines over the years ,but i have seen others ,and i always warned them about the dangers.
Even nowadays if i get a real big iron signal on a field i tend to leave well alone..
Massive respect to all the guys who deal with this stuff on a daily basis.
Thanks ,to all of you out there..
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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by Wansdyke44 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:32 pm

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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by Lord553 » Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:22 pm

Hi All,

New to site, read through a lot of threads but this section "Military Ordnance" has sparked my Interest.

I served in the R.A.F on Bomb Disposal duties and finished my career teaching at the UK Nato EOD School. I now work In Risk Mitigation as a UXO Technical Advisor.

All I would like to add is for your own sake, if you think its any type of ammunition, leave it in situ, mark the location and report it. Old ordnance does not give you a second chance.

Take care All.

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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by Tinopener » Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:22 pm

Danny wellbeck the footballer his grandfather was a ww2 bomb disposal expert his name...... stan wellbeck =))

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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by RRPG » Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:54 pm

Sound advice Lord533 and welcome to the forum :) Live ordnance is not something to be meddled with OR removed from the ground. The guys here are well aware of our stance and advice on such matters, but your experience and professional knowledge certainly adds weight to the message. Many thanks :)

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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by jamie18thmo » Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:23 pm

I love that series!
The first thing I unearthed today was a 2" mortar bomb. I think it was just a smoke bomb, but I'll get it checked out. I didn't bring it home.
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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by RRPG » Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:04 pm

Did you take a picture Jamie?
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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by jamie18thmo » Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:47 pm

I'll take a picture of it when I get back to work. I know where there's another one too.
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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by jamie18thmo » Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:27 pm

Here's the 2" mortar bomb RRPG. Probably a smoke type? It was carted off to be blown up with some other stuff.
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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by RRPG » Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:36 pm

Para Illum 2 inch. The tail fin gives it away. Totally inert and full of mud. Amazing the stuff they blow up nowadays. I often wonder if the EOD guys either don't know what it is so blow it up anyway, (a sensible policy), or whether they know what it is and just like blowing stuff up!
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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by jamie18thmo » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:28 pm

The guy I spoke to was pretty certain that it was a smoke bomb, but some of the other things he'd collected up were possibly a bit more dodgy. Better safe than sorry, so blow it all up. More fun too, I guess! ;)
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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by RRPG » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:05 pm

Well, I take no pleasure in saying this, but he was wrong. It is a para illum round, no doubt at all. What concerns me is that if he did think it was a smoke bomb, why did he blow it up???!!!! Very very strange.......
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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by DAVYBFAST » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:05 pm

found this the other day and took it home.

any ideas what it is =))
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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by MilitaryMetalMagnut » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:35 am

DAVYBFAST wrote:found this the other day and took it home.

any ideas what it is =))
One of them child's 'Fun snap' things? Pretty good condition, too! rl; =))
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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by DAVYBFAST » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:29 am

fun snap ::g =)) =)) =))

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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by panzer » Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:19 am

I dug this up the other day, didn't get much response from an Id request on here other than it looked like a fuse of some sort and feedback elsewhere was a more bit worrying. I reported it to be on the safeside resulting in Police having a look, they called in Matrix?? who then called in Army EOD to remove it.
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Re: Danger UXB ! 'Bomb Finders' Please Read

Post by Dave8472 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:54 am

Hi, I did post on your topic on 'Dig This' but it probably got lost in amongst all the other posts of people guessing at what it was from people who really don't know lol

It is a perfectly safe No. 209 AA Fuze cone, PS they are quite a common find

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http://www.8472.co.uk/web/fuzes/0013.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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The last two pictures will need to be clicked on to see due to the picture size restraints on the forum

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