Clarity on WW2/WW1 relics in France

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Re: Clarity on WW2/WW1 relics in France

Post by sweepspeed5 » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:20 pm

Good for you Littleboot. ::g



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Re: Clarity on WW2/WW1 relics in France

Post by cheeseaddict » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:56 pm

Some people are full of their self-perceived importance

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Re: Clarity on WW2/WW1 relics in France

Post by lardbelly » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:45 pm

RRPG wrote:I am sorry but you are all missing the point here so let me re-iterate.

All relics recovered in France from WW1 and WW2, regardless of where they are found or how, are property of the French state. This was enacted some 5 years ago. If you are caught at the border with such relics, even if you bought them from a carboot or trader, you will be liable to prosecution.

RRPG
In fairness to RRPG, he is only stating the facts and I thank him for that ::g

As someone who has fished (a lot) in France I realise how 'strange' their laws can be but laws they are. Break them at your peril !
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Re: Clarity on WW2/WW1 relics in France

Post by RRPG » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:32 pm

I am not quite sure why I got that reaction to be honest. All I was doing was re-iterating the original post, the factual basis of which appears to have been lost. If you scroll back through the thread you will see I have tried to keep the thread on track previously. If you wish to take it as a personal attack on you littleboot, then so be it. I can do nothing about that other than point out I did not mention you at all in the reply, nor was I anything other than factual.

As for cheeseaddict's reply, I find it most odd. How can my post be construed as 'self-importance'. If you were doing something that was potentially dangerous with an item of ordnance, and I ignored it, would I therefore have no self-importance? I have to say I find your reply most childish and not one that would normally be associated with this forum.

The original post pointed out the law relating to relics from WW1 and WW2. It doesn't relate to the legality or otherwise of MDing in France and was never intended to. I pointed this out.....again.

RRPG
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Lots of videos of WW2 relics being recovered on my channel! Go view it!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZxrI- ... SoD8F8kebg"

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Re: Clarity on WW2/WW1 relics in France

Post by cheeseaddict » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:35 pm

RPPG you undoubtedly know a great deal about ordnance and I doff my metaphorical cap accordingly. As the remarks are getting personal, I find some of your posts condescending and patronising. An 'expert' who perceives him or herself to be as such is most irritating. As for my post 'going against the tone of the forum' I find your constant mounting of your high horse to be similarly against the grain.
For the record, I have spent many years visiting the battlefields of the western world and have many years of experience handling ordnance as a police firearms officer. However, I would never assume to know any more than anybody else. I find you to be my antithesis.
Last edited by cheeseaddict on Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Clarity on WW2/WW1 relics in France

Post by RRPG » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:46 pm

So let me get this right. Because I have knowledge of ordnance and think it good to pass on such knowledge, to keep people from harm and on the right side of the law, that is me getting on 'my high horse'??

I would have thought that you, more than anybody, would appreciate what I am doing.

The member who posted a picture of a live 2 inch mortar on his draining board.......the member who posted pictures of a live 20mm nose fuze with the gaine attached......the member who posted pictures of a live incendiary bomb........ All of these I have advised on the correct course or urgent action. How about the people with armour piercing or incendiary bullets, illegal to possess under section 5, 1A, (g) of the firearms act.....I should have kept quiet?

Knowledge is something which should be passed on and shared, which is what I try and do. If you would like to take over, be my guest. As a firearms officer, I am somewhat surprised that you are admonishing me for my actions. However, I will leave the identification of ordnance and advice on the law in your capable hands in future.

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Lots of videos of WW2 relics being recovered on my channel! Go view it!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZxrI- ... SoD8F8kebg"

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Re: Clarity on WW2/WW1 relics in France

Post by cheeseaddict » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:49 pm

Retired, not current. As a teacher, I know how important it is to impart knowledge. Nobody Is doubting the good work you've done, I just find your tone in many posts gets my back up. Keep up the good work

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Re: Clarity on WW2/WW1 relics in France

Post by RRPG » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:56 pm

Then we agree on one thing at least. The internet can be so impersonal, as can the 'typed' word. The tone of the typed word can easily be misinterpreted, as has been exemplified by this thread. All I wanted to do was explain that the RELICS are covered by the law, not the act of recovering them, a fact that seems lost in numerous replies.

I can assure you that none of my posts are meant to the holier-than-thou. Sometimes, like you, I get a bit hacked off when people say something that is either totally incorrect, or totally illegal. Then, I admit, I can get a bit shirty, especially where people's safety is concerned. However I, like you, learn something new every day and realise there are many people out there who know so much more than me. However, what I do know I will pass on. If, in some instances, where lives are in danger or the law has been broken, I get a bit high-horsey then I apologise. I have everyone's safety in mind.......not my own ego.

With that I suggest we move on. Perhaps one day we will stumble across each other and you will discover I am nothing like you think I am............I am, after all, just a guy like you, who digs things up, like you.....

RRPG
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Lots of videos of WW2 relics being recovered on my channel! Go view it!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZxrI- ... SoD8F8kebg"

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Re: Clarity on WW2/WW1 relics in France

Post by cheeseaddict » Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:01 pm

Fair points made- will be the first to put my hand in my pocket if we ever meet at the bar

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Re: Clarity on WW2/WW1 relics in France

Post by cheeseaddict » Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:05 pm

Moving off at a tangent, found out recently that Tony Edwards had passed away. He had written some books on ammunition and was a member of the Durand group. Heard him speak a few years ago on Great War archaeology.
RIP

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Re: Clarity on WW2/WW1 relics in France

Post by RRPG » Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:39 am

That is sad news. I knew Tony via another forum and he will be missed. His knowledge of small arms ammunition was unparalleled. A nice guy and a true gent. I did hear a year or so back that he had prostate cancer......
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZxrI- ... SoD8F8kebg"

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Re: Clarity on WW2/WW1 relics in France

Post by wildman695 » Sun May 22, 2016 11:36 am

RRPG wrote:
However, if they have the impression it has to do with tourists with a purpose other than a 'souvenir' pick is also another law (eg in the Somme, Champagne, Verdun, Meuse and Argonne)

Have in possession:
1. a detector, or
2. spades, digging tools (a garden spade is too much), or
3. parts or components of ammunition;

Then immediate confiscation of their vehicle until the fine (FF 20,000 / € 3100, -) is payed. The French government is willing to containment of the offender (s) until this decision is respected.

RRPG
Are you saying just carrying a metal detector in my motorhome is illegal in France?

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Re: Clarity on WW2/WW1 relics in France

Post by geoffb » Sun May 22, 2016 2:37 pm

"The law also states that landowners permission to dig is NOT SUFFICIENT and that you also need written authority from the local government prefecture. Mind you, even if you have both these, you still can't remove the item from the ground" !

The above quote from the original post is not correct.
You do not need permission from the Prefecture to search on land providing its not a listed battlefield site or a historically important listed site. However, you do need permission from the landowner.
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Re: Clarity on WW2/WW1 relics in France

Post by RRPG » Wed May 25, 2016 5:12 pm

No need to shoot the messenger. The law is quite clear in France, copied below for you, and all I am doing is highlighting this law.

........................................................................................

The use of metal detectors was controlled by the use of the war time Patrimony Act 1941 but, on the 18 December 1989 Law Number 89-900 (NOR: MCCX8900 163L) was adopted. However see appendix (L542) adopted in 2004.

Article 1: No one may use metal detecting equipment for the purpose of searching for monuments and objects which could interest (concern?) prehistory, history, art or archaeology without first having obtained administrative authorisation issued according to the qualification of the applicant and also the nature and method of searching.

Article 2: All publicity and instructions on the use of metal detectors must carry the warning of the prohibition stated in Article 1, the penalties involved and also the reason for this legislation.

Article 3: Every infringement of the present law will be noted by officers, police agents and other law enforcement officers, as well as by officials, agents and guardians of Article 3 of the law number 80-532 of 15 July 1980 relative to the protection of public collections against acts of vandalism.

Article 4: The reports drawn up by the various persons designated by Article 3 above will, until proved to the contrary, be given or sent, without delay, to the public prosecutor of the Republic in the jurisdiction where the offence was committed.

Under French law the enactment of legislation is followed by the Decree which determines how the law will be applied. In this case the Decree states:

Article 1 The authorisation to use metal detectors, provided for by Article1 of the 18 December 1989 Law is granted, on the demand of the interested party, by the license of the Prefect of the region in which the land to be searched is situated.

The request for authorisation must establish the identity, competence and experience of the applicant as well as the location, scientific objective and the duration of the searches to be undertaken.

When the searches are to be carried out on land which does not belong to the applicant, the written application must be accompanied by a document of consent written by the owner of the land and, if appropriate, anyone else who has the right.

Article 2 Anyone who uses a metal detector to carry out searches of the sort described in Article 1 of the Law without having first obtained the authorisation required or who does not observe the requirements described in Article 1 of this Decree will be punished by the fine applicable for contraventions of the fifth class.
The equipment used in the infringement will be confiscated.

Article 3 Whoever publicises or draws up publicity for, or draw up information about the use of metal detectors and fails to draw attention to the requirements of Article 2 of the Law will be punished according to the penalties applicable for offences of the fifth class.

Beaches are believed to be outside this Law.

Appendix (L542)
Art L542: No one can use equipment allowing metal target detection, to search monuments for objects of interest to pre-history, history, art or archaeology, without having first obtained an administrative authorisation, which may be given depending on the qualification of the applicant, as well as the nature of and reason for the research. Those who contravine are liable ti fines within the band class 5. The purpose of this regulation is the protection of archaeological sites. The authorisation of archaeological research using metal detectors requires the permission of the prefect of the area concerned.
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Re: Clarity on WW2/WW1 relics in France

Post by geoffb » Wed May 25, 2016 7:29 pm

You Quote,
"Art L542: No one can use equipment allowing metal target detection, to search monuments for objects of interest to pre-history, history, art or archaeology, without having first obtained an administrative authorisation, which may be given depending on the qualification of the applicant, as well as the nature of and reason for the research".

Article 1 and above refers to searching "Listed" sites where you do need permission from the authorities. Permission can be granted if the person applying is qualified, has sufficient reason to search and prepared to submit finds and reports.
Secondly, the law relating to permission to search listed sites is not now anything to do with the Prefecture. Permission on these sites must be given by the Departmental archaeologist. This new law came into force about 18mths ago. I am aware of this as I approached my Prefecture and he said that he has nothing to do with detecting permission as all permits are issued by the departmental archaeologist in Caen.
Hope this information may be of use.

By the way, I am not shooting the messenger. Sorry if that was implied.
I will say the laws on most subjects in France are at best, bloody ambiguous complicated and interpreted in different ways. I can assure you that the information I have given is correct and from the "horses" mouth.
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Re: Clarity on WW2/WW1 relics in France

Post by RRPG » Mon May 30, 2016 2:30 pm

geoffb wrote:
By the way, I am not shooting the messenger. Sorry if that was implied.
I will say the laws on most subjects in France are at best, bloody ambiguous complicated and interpreted in different ways. I can assure you that the information I have given is correct and from the "horses" mouth.
Thanks :) It's always difficult to judge sentiment in a typed reply. Much rather see someone's face!

I know of three British detectorists in the past couple of years, who have been prosecuted under the above law whilst searching WW2 sites. The French police make a bee-line for a British car and play on their lack of understanding of the language and law!

Always better to be safe than sorry in my opinion. :)
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Re: Clarity on WW2/WW1 relics in France

Post by geoffb » Mon May 30, 2016 4:51 pm

RRPG wrote:
geoffb wrote:
By the way, I am not shooting the messenger. Sorry if that was implied.
I will say the laws on most subjects in France are at best, bloody ambiguous complicated and interpreted in different ways. I can assure you that the information I have given is correct and from the "horses" mouth.
Thanks :) It's always difficult to judge sentiment in a typed reply. Much rather see someone's face!

I know of three British detectorists in the past couple of years, who have been prosecuted under the above law whilst searching WW2 sites. The French police make a bee-line for a British car and play on their lack of understanding of the language and law!

Always better to be safe than sorry in my opinion. :)
Yes, I quite agree with you.
If the English people you know were detecting on listed WW2 sites they deserve prosecution as I am sure you agree. On saying that, I do know a couple of French Gendarmes who are detectorists and they search for WW2 "militaria" all the time but, not on listed sites.
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Re: Clarity on WW2/WW1 relics in France

Post by geoman » Mon May 30, 2016 8:05 pm

Some very interesting discussion going on here.

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Re: Clarity on WW2/WW1 relics in France

Post by Albus » Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:44 pm

The problem with French Law is that NOTHING is clear.
There are National Laws that are completely ignored by local 'Communes'.
Its simlar to the French Laws on Kit Cars. The EU law states that any car legally registered in any EU country must be allowed to be registered and Homolgated in any other EU state. France National Law completely ignores it. BUT some area of France will give full Homolgation for Kit Cars, Some totally refuse because "That make isnt in the book", some will only do it as a 'Voiture de Collection' and some just dont care, as my friend in the South of France has just found out when he received full registration for his UK built Cobra.
Its the same with Detecting. The National Law says 'Non' But in many areas, if you get written permission from the Landowners and the Marie the police will completely ignore you. Of course the exeptions are Battlefields and known historic sites.

Its also a point to note that France has more Court cases against in the EU Commision for breaches of EU law than any other country. Wonder why?

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Re: Clarity on WW2/WW1 relics in France

Post by littleboot » Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:47 pm

Totally agree with Geoff and Albus on this. (With feeling as we have just had to register the BMW in France and guess what? The actual registration documents are not enough to 'prove' t is a BMW. We had to pay a hundred quid to get a written notification from BMW that effectively repeated what was on the Registration Document.)
I don't think Brits who haven't lived in France realize how the French mindset works. (Or have a clue frankly about how very protectionist/ obstructive they are on the sly towards any goods/services/qualifications that are not French...but that's another story)

When Brits look at French laws they interpret them as if they would a British Law. (Which is incidentally one of the reasons we never made the EU work for us as well as it should have done.)
Take all the food safety and hygiene regs imposed through the EU. Rigourously enforced into the UK to the letter. After all food safety is food safety and all that. In France? Oh yes they SIGN the accords and agreements and then? Pretty much ignore them or don't ever (intend to) enforce them. Every market in France is testament to that.
Detecting is the same. Clubs, shops, websites, magazines. All devoted to metal detecting. The Law is basically nowhere near as clear cut as a simple page of text. Its interpretation varies. The local mayor has a lot of power for example.....so if you get on with him (or not) comes into play. And common sense. Mess about in plough soil in the back of beyond and no-one will do anything other than be mildly curious or laugh tolerantly. Be a twilit and blatantly detect on or ear sensitive or historical sites and you get the hassle you deserve, Simple.
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Re: Clarity on WW2/WW1 relics in France

Post by Wansdyke44 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:28 am

Article about a French detectorist looting a WW1 grave site and getting caught. A clear warning about not getting permission or reporting human remains when they are found.

http://www.lavoixdunord.fr/128493/artic ... ondiale-la
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