The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

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The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by ploughchaser » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:59 pm

Hello everyone,this ones short and sweet really,is a nel tornado coil for the Garrett ace 250 beneficial as an upgrade to the standard coil that I have at the moment anybody have experience with it? Opinions and advice much appreciated👍



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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Mel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by Easylife » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:44 am

Well it won't find what is not there, but they do seem popular and find things. x;
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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Mel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by ploughchaser » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:39 am

Easylife wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:44 am
Well it won't find what is not there, but they do seem popular and find things. x;
Thanks Easy,it was as much for the ground coverage I was thinking about mate,it’s quite slow with the standard coil,and with me having a lot of pasture,without being drawn into speeding my swing up, i thought it would help me cover more ground in a controlled way,thanks for the reply mate!👍

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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by lonecoiler » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:15 am

I have that combo. It does not affect the balance but pin pointing not quite as accurate. It certainly covers the ground and helps you find nothing quicker :;@
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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by Roughwood » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:56 am

Hi,

I don't have that particular detector/coil, but recently bought a secondhand RC40 coil for my Racer2. It''s a bit of a beast, and I got it specifically for rough areas on my permission.

Whether there's a bit of 'placebo effect' going on, I'm not sure, but I think it has made a difference. Ground coverage is certainly improved.

I believe that if you have a choice of coils, it is advantageous, but a big coil won't produce miracles!
Also, as lonecoiler says, pinpointing is not as accurate.

Good luck ::g
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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by Blackadder43 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:06 am

Just my personal opinion, but, if you have loads of Pasture then in reality just increasing the coil size by a few inches will not really make a dent in when you finish it all?.....if infact you ever finish it all

Your left to right swing will not cover any more ground, but you may gain an inch or 3 moving forward with your swing
But
Your arms will ache quicker and you "might" have to take more breaks than you would swinging the normal coil, so any speed in detectecting is negated in extra breaks

If it were me i would earmark that large coil money for my next upgrade on a machine
The ace 250 is an excellent starter machine, but thats what it is if you become serious and addicted to the hobby
Your choice again fella :)) :D
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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by ploughchaser » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:10 am

Thanks for your replies and advice chaps,I’m thinking now you’ve said about the pinpointing not being as accurate I should stick to my standard coil as I don’t want to compromise the tidyness of my digging with it being pasture,don’t want to create unnecessary digging👍

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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by Roughwood » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:18 am

I was fortunate in getting my RC40 coil at a very good price, but there's no way I'd buy a larger coil brand new...
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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by ploughchaser » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:00 am

Blackadder43 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:06 am
Just my personal opinion, but, if you have loads of Pasture then in reality just increasing the coil size by a few inches will not really make a dent in when you finish it all?.....if infact you ever finish it all

Your left to right swing will not cover any more ground, but you may gain an inch or 3 moving forward with your swing
But
Your arms will ache quicker and you "might" have to take more breaks than you would swinging the normal coil, so any speed in detectecting is negated in extra breaks

If it were me i would earmark that large coil money for my next upgrade on a machine
The ace 250 is an excellent starter machine, but thats what it is if you become serious and addicted to the hobby
Your choice again fella :)) :D
Thanks Blackadder I’ve made my mind up mate,I’m not going to bother getting one,like you said, whatever I spend adding to it,it is a starter detector,all be it a very good one,I’m gonna keep going as I am ,I’ll get a new detector when my cash pot builds up a bit lol,which one tho god knows, but I’m in no race!👍

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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by Muddyknee » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:10 am

I've the Tornado on my 400i,great combo.
The 400i would be a superb upgrade,and if you bought the Tornado for your 250,it would also fit the 400i.
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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by ploughchaser » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:16 am

Muddyknee wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:10 am
I've the Tornado on my 400i,great combo.
The 400i would be a superb upgrade,and if you bought the Tornado for your 250,it would also fit the 400i.
Thanks mate I’ll bare that in mind when the time comes to get my upgrade,cheers mate!👍

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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by Bors » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:54 am

Quote beginner steve ,...." I’ve made my mind up mate,I’m not going to bother getting one. "

Well, I amongst a few others it seems think ,you`ve made the right decision Steve in your position .
All coils have their pluses and minus`es . But they are not a Magic Fix for finding more . What you gain on the Swings ,you lose on the Roundabouts as the saying goes . The Big coils are not a Win Win add on. As already mentioned accurate Pinpointing can suffer. Small targets at greater depth will get missed as your coil will hone in on only big targets, and the extra weight might not seem noticeable at first ,but the extra weight does tell over a length of time swinging it.
To give an example of my point .....Its like saying hold this bag of 5lb of potatoes for a few minutes.
Ok, no one bats an eye of its weight, but carry a 5lb bag of potatoes for two hours and see if it feels just as light then ? Do you see my point ,ok the Coil won`t weigh 5lbs ,but the comparison of the effect of the extra weight difference will make ,is still the same over a lengthy period especially if your working in sticky mud which will add even further weight ?
Last edited by Bors on Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by ploughchaser » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:32 pm

Bors wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:54 am
Quote beginner steve ,...." I’ve made my mind up mate,I’m not going to bother getting one. "

Well, I amongst a few others it seems think ,you`ve made the right decision Steve in your position .
All coils have their pluses and minus`es . But they are not a Magic Fix for finding more . What you gain on the Swings ,you lose on the Roundabouts as the saying goes . The Big coils are not a Win Win add on. As already mentioned accurate Pinpointing suffers. Small targets at greater depth will get missed as your coil will hone in on only big targets, and the extra weight might not seem noticeable at first ,but the extra weight does tell over a length of time swinging it.
To give an example of my point .....Its like saying hold this bag of 5lb of potatoes for a few minutes.
Ok, no one bats an eye of its weight, but carry a 5lb bag of potatoes for two hours and see if it feels just as light then ? Do you see my point ,ok the Coil won`t weigh 5lbs ,but the comparison of the effect of the extra weight difference will make ,is still the same over a lengthy period especially if your working in sticky mud which will add even further weight ?
Thanks for your opinion Bors,after listening to the pros and cons of getting one or not,I think the right decision for me personally,the loss of accuracy on pinpointing was a biggie for me! Cheers buddy!👍

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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by Koala » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:37 pm

some sensible answers

plusses of a bigger coil
more coverage
locks onto targets easier
more depth on larger targets


minuses
worse pointing
more time wasted digging out cans from depth
worse iron masking


plusses of changing to a dd
depth is less effected if there's a lot of coke about

minuses
even worse pinpointing
worse discrimination around iron


Is it worth spending the money upgrading the coil is always a difficult one to answer especially as your mileage might be different in your fields but.


I carefully detected my garden with a 1980s detector with a 10 inch and 6 inch concentric coils. Found plenty of target. Since I have detected it with different detectors with different size coils and DD coils. Even a T2 with after market coil could find a single extra target.

Expecting the grass to be greener by adding a larger coil isn't often true.

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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by R4RJB » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:38 pm

Regarding weight, my Garrett AT Pro stock coil with cover weighs 565 grams. My NEL Tornado is 665 grams with cover making it 100 grams, or 17% heavier.
17% is the difference between coils though. The total weight of the AT Pro with stock coil is 1400 grams so the weight with a Tornado is 1500 grams. That makes the total difference only 7% although that can feel like a lot after swinging for a few hours.
I always use the Tornado and only get tired if there are long spells without a decent signal and my swing arm doesn't get a break. Fortunately, I tend to get more fatigued by digging so many holes. I have just purchased a harness which does seem to help but, I haven't got used to it yet.
Incidentally, I bought my detector secondhand and it came with the NEL Tornado. I wouldn't want to pay the price of a new one. There are several secondhand coils on sale at Fleabay at the moment.
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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by ploughchaser » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:50 pm

Thanks for your opinions and input everyone,it seems clear to me that it’s down to personal preference wether to get one or not,although I appreciate some of the advantages of getting one,my decision is to wait and put my money towards my detector upgrade. Thanks all!👍

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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by the rainbows end » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:33 pm


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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by Easylife » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:15 pm

Koala wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:37 pm

plusses of changing to a dd
depth is less effected if there's a lot of coke about

minuses
even worse pinpointing
worse discrimination around iron
I have to disagree, a DD coil's search pattern is like a thin blade so gives far better target separation and thus better pin-pointing than a concentric coil especially amongst iron. ::g
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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by Bargeman » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:49 pm

A bigger coil does not make the pinpointing worse??? I have no idea why anyone would say such a thing.

I have a NEL tornado for my GMP, I have had the 17" coil on my old CTX, and I have the 15" coil on my Nox 800, so I come to this with a view over different machines, and I have never had an issue with pinpointing.
Pinpointing with the NEL is no different than pinpointing with the standard 9" coil x; and if you find you do have an issue with pinpointing using a larger coil, then in my opinion this comes down to user error rl; If there was a problem with this, then NEL, and the others would not have sold the thousands of units that they have across many brands.


Oh well, each to their own, it is a funny old world. :D ::g



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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by ninja nige » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:10 pm

hi
i will keep it simple
1000000% yes get a tornado.
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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by Koala » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:40 pm

Easylife wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:15 pm
Koala wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:37 pm

plusses of changing to a dd
depth is less effected if there's a lot of coke about

minuses
even worse pinpointing
worse discrimination around iron
I have to disagree, a DD coil's search pattern is like a thin blade so gives far better target separation and thus better pin-pointing than a concentric coil especially amongst iron. ::g
I stand by discrimination is better especially around iron. As tested by me with both types of coils and conformed by an designer at Whites who also hunts old homesteads and prefers a small sniper concentric for the same reason.

Size for size the concentric is deeper but not enough to make any difference.

the thin blade was originally misleading advertising by MineLab which is often re quoted without being checked. As its now all over the internet and been published in detecting books I can see how it is now taken as fact. I suggest you test it for yourself. For example the often quoted upside cone of the concentric coil is actually more like a Christmas pudding and the DD is similar but lopsided like someone has pushed on one side a bit that's for small coin targets. To test this I have plotted the detection area using both types coils using a non motion detector and different size targets at different heights.


Iron separation from large iron say a horseshoe to a small target say hammered penny is purely down to coil size. Both concentric and DD and you are doing well to get close to half the coils diameter. I know and have try for real. DD or Concentric makes no difference. As tested by me with a 5.5", 8" and 10" concentric coils and 8" and 10" DD


Gets a bit more complicated if have a small nail on the surface then a coin then another nail. Swinging down the nail the DD is a clear winner. However change the swing direction so its at 90 degrees to the nail and the DD preforms the worse.


I suspect that if coke is on the surface then the DD will be the winner, however I haven't tried this for myself its only what I have read. Given that the blade verses cone isn't true I really need to check this for myself one day.

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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by littleboot » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:41 pm

It's like this: You haven't been detecting long. You have already found hammereds.
Why change things at this stage? I never understand the coverage thing...it is as BA said, you simply get tired quicker so why not stick with the standard coil and do what you do thoroughly? Seems to be working so far.
It may well be that once you get into it you decide to upgrade to a different machine. But, for now, I think you have every reason to be satisfied with how things are going. Enjoy the walk..and don't try to run just yet. Its all fine and large for a long-term detectorist to say something about changing a coil....but for a relative newbie any change can throw things out of whack and spoil the enjoyment.
You are finding good stuff. That's the name of the game.
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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by Bors » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:47 pm

At the end of the day guy`s ,its all down to personal choices. We can only give our own opinions ,once the guy having to make the deciding reads the comments only he/she can decide ,upon what they read. We all like and dislike different things so getting annoyed because some one else disagrees with you ,is hardly an endorsement to the person deciding .Try to remember its the other person deciding who ends up forking out the cash not you . You might have bought a Coil cheap ,they might have to end up spending a £100 plus for the same thing . It`s their money that`s being spent not anyone else`s , so making the right decision ,is a very important decision .

To Ixoye.
No.Be fair now , I`ve never said that. What I did tell the lad was some truths & pointed out there can be plus`s and minuses ,and just to let him know.
He`s hardly been detecting long so he was advised by another member that rather than spending his money on a "Big Coil". It would be probably wiser to add that money with maybe a bit more, to just help upgrade his present detector to a more advanced machine . So all in all he was given some advice by many on here and it appears he made his choice. ::g
Last edited by Bors on Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by Buriedbytime&dust » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:49 pm

Bargeman wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:49 pm
A bigger coil does not make the pinpointing worse??? I have no idea why anyone would say such a thing.

I have a NEL tornado for my GMP, I have had the 17" coil on my old CTX, and I have the 15" coil on my Nox 800, so I come to this with a view over different machines, and I have never had an issue with pinpointing.

::g

I've got the same two coils attached to those same two machines most of the time. I don't find either of them any less accurate than the stock coils.

As goes the original question, I'd put the money into an upgrade on the machine itself. There are some great machines available for very reasonable cost on the second hand market at the minute.

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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by Bors » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:13 pm

I think the answer could be that some people find Pinpointing hard with a Stock coil let alone a Big Coil. Then there are some people that find pinpointing with the Big coil even more frustrating.
And there are other such as who`ve spoken up don`t find pinpointing hard with the Big coil. Its ALL different horses for courses, and the guy asked for opinions and he was told various opinions of what could be ahead .
Would it have been best to say nothing at all ? Or isn`t it a better thing to reveal all the Pluses & minuses of different peoples findings ?

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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by Easylife » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:28 pm

Koala wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:40 pm
Easylife wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:15 pm
Koala wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:37 pm

plusses of changing to a dd
depth is less effected if there's a lot of coke about

minuses
even worse pinpointing
worse discrimination around iron
I have to disagree, a DD coil's search pattern is like a thin blade so gives far better target separation and thus better pin-pointing than a concentric coil especially amongst iron. ::g
I stand by discrimination is better especially around iron.
Of course but you said the opposite, Quote "worse discrimination around iron". :-/
I do agree that different coil types and sizes, better suit different situations. ::g
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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by ploughchaser » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:29 pm

If I hadn’t have made the decision to get an upgrade after listening to all of the points of view,I would probably have took the chance on one,there have been many opinions all which I’ve taken in,it clearly has pros and cons,thanks everybody for your input, but for me the clear sensible route is to upgrade my detector to take me foreward in the future! Many thanks to you all again for your input!👍

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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by Bargeman » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:38 pm

Beginner steve wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:29 pm
but for me the clear sensible route is to upgrade my detector to take me foreward in the future! 👍

I think that is a wise decision ::g and worry not, for we have just as many opinions in that direction too :D ::g Now if it were me I would go for... x;





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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by Koala » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:46 pm

Easylife wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:28 pm
Koala wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:40 pm
Easylife wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:15 pm

I have to disagree, a DD coil's search pattern is like a thin blade so gives far better target separation and thus better pin-pointing than a concentric coil especially amongst iron. ::g
I stand by discrimination is better especially around iron.
Of course but you said the opposite, Quote "worse discrimination around iron". :-/
I do agree that different coil types and sizes, better suit different situations. ::g
yep its swings and roundabouts'. ::g

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Re: The benefits/disadvantages of upgrading to a Nel tornado coil for my Garrett ace 250

Post by Easylife » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:05 pm

I guess it helps to understand the principles of operation rather than say taking a gung-ho approach that bigger is better. Some detectors and coils pin-point better than others. A larger coil by it's nature will see more targets at the same time which may affect it's pin-pointing ability so better suited to cleaner ground rather than very trashy. The only time I find the Nox 15” coil pin-pointing to be off is when there is either another target very close by or the target is angled, but that is to be expected and quite normal.
It would be much better to get very familiar with using the standard coil which will be a better all-rounder. Larger coils have their place just as smaller ones do and don't guarantee any more finds and could find even less dependant upon the situation. Upgrading a detector would likely find more than just sticking a large coil on. :D
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